lishogi.orgbeta

Regarding the rules of Minishogi: Repetition

#11

@NNWill @DonkeyKong

Oh, my goodness! It went kind of viral, lmao.

Thank you for everyone's attention to the topic.

Personally, I think the rule was indeed established for Minishogi by the Federation or whatever after seeing the draw problem occured among the top or good players, which kind of makes sense, else there would be no point in playing Minishogi otherwise.

However, in the end, the popularity for Minishogi didn't last despite several saving attempts and everything about them was eventually forgotten.

This is purely just my guess based purely or entirely on my logical thinking. It may be wrong. It would definitely need an expert's opinion or maybe experts' for it.

I would suggest that every Japanese players who read this and are interested in the topic asking their fellow Japanese shogi players about it, or even the Japanese Shogi association if they do have the connection.

Of course, this is purely just my suggestion. You may choose to or not to do it after considering the pros and cons of it.

P.S. I humbly request The Japanese Players who could read English to translate this message of mine to your fellow countrymen and players for the sake of the spreading of the correct Shogi's Knowledge..

#12

I'm just learning about Minishogi, but it occurs to me that quick repetitions might not be good for Lishogi's arena format (although if the arena code is similar to Lichess, quick draws don't score any points).

#13

@Toadofsky Well, all we could do is putting the issue to your attention. As for what it will be at the end, it is entirely up to the Devs of Lishogi.

#14

@Toadofsky
In an arena, no points are awarded if a game ends after less than 10 moves. This opening can end in a draw after 9 moves.
lishogi.org/Tae7PGNL
However, both players can play one additional pair of moves to get to 10 moves and then draw to earn the point.
While draw streaks are a rule, if the players play weaker opponents in between these games and win, that rule would not apply.

#15

Out of curiosity, someone remind me: what engine does Lishogi use and how does it evaluate repetition?

#16

@Toadofsky

I believe that the engine always avoids a draw by repetition when selecting its best moves in Minishogi. As for the first question, I am not sure.

#18

Thanks. I propose different rules:
> 1. For sente, 4-fold repetition is only legal if a) escaping check or b) all moves cause 4-fold repetition
> 2. Legal 4-fold repetition by either player has no effect (game continues)

or alternatively:
> 1. For sente, 4-fold repetition is only legal if a) escaping check or b) all moves cause 4-fold repetition

... but I am open to trying to understand how the Fairy-Stockfish rule (gote claiming a win by repetition) is equitable.

#19

@Toadofsky

If according to the rules, it is a bit different.

4 fold repetition is not legal if escaping check. The one who does perpetual check loses (Like normal Shogi). So, I do think it is a bit more complicated than that. Usually, it is a gote's win for the repetition. But, If it is the perpetual check, the one who does the checks loses regardless of whether they are the sente or the gote.

My advice is, if possible, ask the sites that do this rule how did they do it. Not sure if it is really feasible though.

As for the second suggestion, the game could go on forever then. And there are no mechanisms to stop it.

#20

OK, allow me to rephrase:
* Perpetual check (4-fold repetition of position giving check) is still illegal. I think Lishogi already forbids entry of perpetual check moves.

* Sente "unnecessarily" doing 4-fold repetition is illegal, exception if "necessarily"
a) sente is escaping check (gote hasn't yet fouled on perpetual check from an identical position 4 times, and sente escaping check repeats any earlier position a 4th time instead of choosing to escape check some other way) or
b) all possible sente moves cause 4-fold repetition of position, so sente would be in stalemate if they weren't allowed to repeat

* Legal 4-fold repetition is sennichite (draw) -- if gote wants to draw, that's fine; but if sente is trying to deviate and gote is trying to draw, gote should not win

Reconnecting